rick warren and saddleback church in the news
Obabama and Brownback at Saddleback
Warren holds AIDS summit
rick's controversial trip to syria
rick's response to accusations
Barak Obama to speak at saddleback church
A blog critical of Rick Warren, Saddleback, and Purpose-Driven stuff.
this is a rap video opening the 2006 worship conference at saddleback. It's called "filled with the spirit."
5 comments:
ok, please give an interpretation of what this means to you. I have no clue... I guess what I am asking is...is this real? thanks
yes. this is all real stuff.
what does it mean to me? that's a tough one.
the church i go to is basically a saddleback "clone." Seeker sensitive. Celebrate Recovery. 40-day ventures. Signed membership contracts. Experimental. Professional. Polished. Worship services that are comfortable and entertaining and perfectly coreographed. drama. multi-media. staff hired based on drama and multi-media savvy, as well as presentation skills. several catchy sermon themes per year. well-taught church "values" (and encouragement to go somewhere else if these values don't work for you). high-class advertising and marketing. big, modern, pretty, inviting, spotless facilities. Consistent, well-planned growth of 10% a year. (Somewhere in the 4-5,000 range right now.) Good reputation in the community. Active missions program. hundreds of "small groups." community projects. started a church plant in another area of town last year. another one coming. etc, etc, etc.
It runs like a swiss watch. It's a flexible, well-coordinated, professional machine that would put most corporations to shame. Someone quipped that Jesus never would have had to perform the miracle of the feeding of the 5,000 with us because we would have had a sign-up several weeks in advance, color-coordinated bags for fish or chicken, and 23.5% extra bags on hand for the people who would show up that forgot to sign up (based on last year's "feeding of the 4,000" experience). [OK. that was freaky. I just took a break and went to the bathroom. I read a passage from the bible, which i keep in the bathroom (i know. too much information.) and when i put the bookmark in the next place i was supposed to read in my bible-reading system it was... "the feeding of the 5,000." hmmm...]
I work at the church on the weekends doing custodial work. my kids are involved in the youth program. i am in a small group. i am on the photography team. i contribute financially. i went on a missions trip to mexico with the church. one of my daughters was baptized there last year, and another one will be baptized this month.
so, i think i have a pretty good grasp on the saddleback "culture."
What do i think? that's so hard to say. I don't want to criticize for a lot of reasons. There is so much good that is being done. And i have benefited in a variety of ways.
However, something nags at me. We are in an affluent part of Jacksonville, and often I have had the thought go through my mind that I go to "the best church money can buy." (Someone anonymously donated $5 million to the building fund, if that gives you any idea! lol) The other thought i had recently was that if God left the church it would probably not skip a beat. It would keep right on going, full steam ahead. I think it would take awhile for anyone to notice.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone has wrong intentions. They're good people. They have good goals. They do want to reach people. They don't want to put "artificial barriers" between the lost and the church. There's a lot to be said for that. But i think any good thing can go to extremes.
If churches were pools of water I would say that we are a very large and pretty and ever-expanding pool. But not very deep. If there were a pair of infa-red goggles that you could put on and see the heat of the Holy Spirit being active and alive and present, and human effort would become invisible... there would be spots of heat here and there, but i think a lot of the church would disappear.
If I had to pick one of the 7 churches in Revelations, I would have to pick Laodicea...
The Message to the Church in Laodicea
14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning[e] of God’s new creation:
15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.
20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”
(Revelations 3, New Living Translation).
[OK. more freakiness. the radio program i am listening to just started talking about the feeding of the 5,000.]
What about the Purpose Driven stuff? I can't claim to be an expert, but i can give you a couple of personal experiences.
First... I started reading "The Purpose-Driven Life" because everyone was all jazzed up about it. I read the first few chapters and quit. I couldn't get past the loose and sloppy use of scripture to support whatever Rick Warren's current point was he was trying to make. I'm not saying that the point was necessarily wrong... but the way the scripture was used to support or prove it was really weak. That really bothered me.
Secondly, i once wrote an email to our pastor saying that i had been bothered lately by the way scripture seemed to be wrested out of context to prove various points he was making. We happened to be going through a Celebrate Recovery series at the time, and his response was that he had relied too much on Rick Warren's material without investigating it for himself, and promised to tighten it up. (see below for a copy of the emails.)
I agree with the observation that Rick picks and chooses among various translations to find one which seems to "prove" the point he is trying to make. The reason is because if he used another translation it simply wouldn't make the point he is trying to make, because that's not what it really means in the original language. However, if you look at enough translations you can find one that will be wrong enough to say what you want it to say.
(As an aside, as much as I love The Message bible for it's modern language and idioms, it is often so much of a stretch from the original that I always check the NIV and NKJV to get more clarity on how accurate it is. There are way too many times it says or implies things that are simply not there, or completely leaves out a critical piece that is there. It calls itself a translation, but I shudder to think of it that way. I would call it "a paraphrase loosely based on the originals." It has it's place, but whenever anyone uses it in teaching, to prove a point, be wary. The New Living Translation is not as bad as The Message, but it's iffy. For in-depth study compare with NIV, NKJV, or NASB.)
As promised, the rest of this is the email exchange I had with my pastor, Dennis Bratton, about scripture use in sermons. Thanks for the question, TLB! A lot i wanted to say, but didn't know how or when. You opened the door...
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From: Doug Doan [mailto:dougdoan@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 10:14 AM
To: dennisb@ccontheweb.com
Subject: how to handle
Dennis,
I have been coming to Christ's Church with my 3 kids since about November and appreciate it in so many ways. Thank you!
One thing I would like some advice on... I have a passion for the correct interpretation and use of scripture. Sometimes I feel that the way some scriptures are used to prove a point in the sermon outline just don't hold water. Not that the principle being taught is not true, it's just that that verse doesn't really support or prove it. Some of it has to do with how various translations choose to interpret things. It just really bugs me. Again, because of my passion for proper hermeneutics.
My questions is, what do I do with this when it happens? I don't want to be a critic or fault-finder. But it also seems like saying nothing isn't good either. What do you think a healthy way to handle this on an ongoing basis would be?
Thanks,
Doug Doan
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Dennis Bratton DennisB@ccontheweb.com wrote:
Hello Doug,
In this particular series of sermons our purpose is to make things as "simple" to understand an application of principle as possible. Messages are hopefully able to provide something of worth for all listeners, but various series of messages target specific needs or "people groups" more than others. The recovery series can be helpful to all of us but we're specifically trying to connect with people who really struggle with lives burdened by bad choices, addictive behaviors, unresolved circumstances that continue to plague them, etc. The vast majority of the time I use the NIV translation of scripture. I have confidence in its accuracy and readability. In these "seeker" series of messages it has been the practice to use a variety of "modern" translations and paraphrases of scripture to accomplish the goal mentioned above. I am not unaware of your concern. I would never purposefully misuse scripture. And some of the texts used are a stretch, but make a point that hopefully will connect with those who have significant need. These are not expository messages and do not lend themselves timewise to indepth textual study. We cover a lot of material in eight weeks. But I do believe each text used supports the point of the sermon without doing harm to the integrity of scripture or I wouldn't use it. Now....having said that....I always welcome a different view. And rather than letting it bother you, you have my email. Let me know what you think. I've never seen that as "fault-finding" or being critical. That's the journey we're all on, in quest of truth, seeking to better understand and apply the Word of God.
Your thoughts will always be welcomed. I'll look forward to hearing from you.
dennis
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From: Doug Doan [mailto:dougdoan@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:10 PM
To: Dennis Bratton
Subject: RE: how to handle
Thanks Dennis. I hesitated to write not wanting to bother you.
I guess it is some of the "stretches" that make me squirm. I have not seen it as a problem when the message is more expository. I think I had the most issues with the "40 days of community" material. I was just constantly finding things in the book that to me were just way off base from a hermeneutics point of view, all in an effort to "make a point." I found the sermon series similar, and had wondered if you had adopted much of the contenet, and references, from Rick's material, which in fact you may be doing now with this Celebrate Recovery series. Maybe it's Rick I have more of an issue with than you! lol
As I did a study of translations I compared a particular passage and found the nkjv and the niv to be quite accurate/literal, while the nlt I found to be shockingly broad in it's interpretation, such that I felt it should really be called a paraphrase. I will never be able to trust what it says now, without comparing it to the niv/nkjv. It's one thing to say things in the venacular, another to add meanings that aren't there, or take away ones that aren't.
I guess I have endured so much through my life of people saying, "The Bible says this or that," that I have come to really cherish those that take the time to say what the scriptures say, no more, no less. That's my heart.
Oh well, I will give you a couple of examples as they come up, to get your feedback. Thanks for your patience.
Doug
***********
From: "Dennis Bratton" DennisB@ccontheweb.com
To: "'Doug Doan'" dougdoan@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: how to handle
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:55:48 -0400
You're correct about the Rick Warren material. It's probably a little lazy on my part not doing a better job of firming up the way he uses some of the textual references. But your email has encouraged me to tighten up! Thanks for your commitment to the Word.
dennis
Thank you for that information, it helped a lot.
I am shocked that the Obama stuff is true. My family is from IL and told me how wonderful he is. Hmmm, now that I say that...why I am surprised that we have opposite thots.
Helping seekers find and follow Christ...our churches motto...and I do like it. I like the big church concept with little churches inside the big one...like a family.
Interesting...... I would love to sit with you and reason together, we seem to share the same views and I applaud your courage. At least your pastor is open unlike the reation I got when I brought my views to a former pastor - I am no longer a memeber of his church, it wasn't just him either. I always felt that way about NLT (I read it for the life recovery themes, but mine is markedin several places whan I compare it with KJV so I know what was left out) As for Purpose, I did the same thing, started reading because the women's group started reading, but it left a bad taste in my mouth - shallow comes to mind when I think of it. I totally lost interest when he wrote God created all music and something about all music being acceptable for worship because He created all things. (I'm paraphrasing here) God did not create evil and to make such a blanket statement did not invite me to want to read any thing else that was so loosely put together. (I thought for a while I was weird as everyone else who read the book was raving about and I just kept quiet, thinking it was me- I know differently a while back) Very interesting... I would love to reason with you..... The celebrate recovery group I was going to closed down, I had not gone for a while (mostly becasue of time) but I can't get over just talking about your stuff and no one can respond. Listening is good, but I like feedback. I like divorce support groups better, athough one I went to had issues, I have issues with everything and sometimes I wonder if it's just me. Recognize that sometimes it is :-)
There was a meeting of AG (assembly of God) pastors who brought some pastors over to the states from mainly africa but also other nations. Interviewing one upon his leaving the states he was asked what was his thoughts on the "church" in America. He stated "i am amazed at what you have been able to accomplish withOUT the help of the Holy Spirit". You metioned that if God left the 'church' (I call it a club, not the church as my interpretation of Scripture is that we are the temple now), it would keep right on rolling. Its good to think about such things, very good indeed.
I do think that its like our tutor though. In judaism the "law" meaning all the extra do's and donts are called fences, they are designed to hedge us in and keep us from breaking the bigger commandments. I think 'church' is kinda like that. We go, we participate, we are hopefully taught how to hear God for our lives, how to read our word, we gain some structure and discipline, hopefully good relationships...it fences us in and gives alot of other stuff but the heart is really to keep us loving and obeying God. We wouldnt be the same without it (good and bad). We all have to suckle before we start having teeth and the ability to eat meat.
I'm so happy your family and you get so much out of it, thats really the point. If it's drawing you closer to God, to yuor family and to others, how can that be bad?
btw, that video is so dang corny, is it supposed to be hip? Christian music, esp rap can be so lame somtimes.
I liked what you said about taking things out of context, so true. I did a blog on thatu know LOL!! Also, when i was with that abusive couple, they knew the publisher/editor and peeps who did The Message Bible. Did you know they had to recall it after its first few years out because they had taken SO many things out, particularly Jesus and his name, that it changed it so much? Wonder what Jesus is gonna say about stuff like that?
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